14:02:13 So ready

14:03:40 Captions by Ai-Media 
SHANTHI ROBERTSON:
14:03:46  Hello everyone, I think the 
audience has joined us. 
14:03:49 I would like to welcome 
you to the final webinar
14:03:53  in our webinar series, 
brought to you by the 
14:03:56 autonomy disability

14:04:04 .

14:04:17  My name is Shanthi 
Robertson. 
14:04:19 I am a chief investigator in 
the project, but for today's 
14:04:23 webinar, I am your host. 

14:04:25 I would like to begin by 
acknowledging that the 
14:04:28 university resides 
on indigenous land,
14:04:31  and I'm calling in from the 
lands of the Gadigal people 
14:04:35 of the EU are a nation.

14:04:37  They were traditional 
owners of
14:04:39  this country for thousands 
of years was that many of us 
14:04:45 were been

14:04:47  participating are from the 
unseeded lands of various 
14:04:50 nations because of the 
project team wishes to 
14:04:53 acknowledge and pay respects 
to the elders past, present 
14:04:56 and emerging on the lands 
that we work and live. 
14:05:00 So, to give you a brief 
overview of the
14:05:03  aims of the webinar series, 
what we have sought to do in 
14:05:07 the time of remote working 
together, is to take the 
14:05:10 webinar as an opportunity to 
bring together research and 
14:05:14 industry experts from the 
project core research team. 
14:05:17 And talk with the

14:05:22  issues that we are grappling 
within today's workforce up 
14:05:25 the theme of today's webinar 
engaging audiences online, 
14:05:28 representing an engaging 
with the vessel
14:05:30  and diversity because we 
are talking about the arts.
14:05:38  We have a great panel, we 
are so excited for you all to join us. 
14:05:42 First of all, we have Seb Chan who is the 
14:05:45 Chief Experience Officer at ACMI. 

14:05:47 Australians Centre for Moving 
Images really great to have 
14:05:50 you hear Seb. 

14:05:51 We have Cayn Rosmarin who is 
in charge of public programs 
14:05:55 at Casula Powerhouse Art Centre
We have Rachael  
14:05:58 Kiang, Manager and Curator at Gallery Lane Cove and 

14:06:00  Creative Solutions.

14:06:01  We have the

14:06:14  project lead, associate 
Prof Karen Soldatic who is 
14:06:17 the associate professor at 
the Institute of culture and 
14:06:20 society. 

14:06:21 And the School for social 
sciences at the University of 
14:06:24 Western Sydney. 

14:06:25 The format of today's webinar 
is a panel discussion. 
14:06:28 I will ask a few key 
issues from our panel.
14:06:32  The people participating 
from the audience, if you 
14:06:35 have a question or comments, 
please type them in
14:06:44  via the Q and A function for 
some you can type them at any 
14:06:49 time during the session, and 
in the second half of the 
14:06:53 hour, I will call some of the 
questions from the Q&A for 
14:06:57 our panel to discuss was up I 
will cover as many as I can 
14:07:02 in the time that we have. 

14:07:05 It would be great to hear 
your thoughts on Q&A, it 
14:07:08 would be great to pop in and 
directed to a particular 
14:07:13 panel member. 

14:07:13 I think we'll get started, if 
a palace are ready to go. 
14:07:18 I might start with 
a broad question. 
14:07:20 I will ask you to 
respond first. 
14:07:22 If you think about how we are 
engaging diverse audiences 
14:07:26 using technology, one of the 
maintained is that you are 
14:07:29 personally seeing in your 
work in the art centre? 
14:07:33 Cermak SEB CHAN: It has been 
an interesting period and 
14:07:36 last a month was up if you'd 
asked this question prior to 
14:07:41 COVID, I would have had a 
different set of answers. 
14:07:44 In the middle of COVID, 
as I describe it,
14:07:47  technology has 
radically changed
14:07:49  how people consume and 
participate in arts
14:07:52  practices across the board

14:07:58 . 

14:07:59 Some have made it more 
accessible to some audiences, 
14:08:02 and some have made 
it less accessible. 
14:08:05 It introduced more complexity,

14:08:07  and it revealed

14:08:10  sharp disparity

14:08:12  within arts

14:08:15  organisations 
around capacity.
14:08:19  An digital ability.

14:08:23  And ways of thinking about

14:08:24  access

14:08:27  in digital media.

14:08:33  I think a lot of 
organisations have been 
14:08:36 excited to find that 
in some cases,
14:08:40  more people, more diverse 
people have been able to 
14:08:43 attend events

14:08:45  and happenings, but, 
at the same time
14:08:58  there has been not enough 
discussion as to how to make 
14:09:02 the events and happenings 
more broadly accessible. 
14:09:05 So, it might have replaced one

14:09:07  group's lack of access with 
another group's lack of 
14:09:10 access.

14:09:10  Digital literacy and fluency 
within the sector itself
14:09:14  that is still

14:09:15  travelling June.

14:09:19  challenging.

14:09:22  And at a time when

14:09:25  money and time is scarce

14:09:29 . 

14:09:29 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: 
It is the intense
14:09:31  pressure of this 
period where things
14:09:41  change quickly. 

14:09:42 Karen, what do you think? 

14:09:44 What are the main changes 
that you are seeing in the 
14:09:48 arts sector this year? 

14:09:50 KAREN SOLDATIC: I think, 
as I was saying,
14:09:56  it is about the

14:10:03  ability of the sector to 
deliver via technology to 
14:10:06 diverse audiences. 

14:10:07 Starkly, I lot of the advocacy

14:10:12  has been about 
representation within the 
14:10:14 arts. 

14:10:14 Performers.

14:10:21  The kind of arts that are 
consumed by the audience, 
14:10:26 making sure we have diverse 
representation.
14:10:27  But, this has flipped 
it in some ways.
14:10:34  Maintaining pressure to 
ensure that we have diversity 
14:10:37 within the arts, particularly 
the labour force, and so 
14:10:40 forth. 

14:10:42 And the work that is curated.

14:10:43  But, now have this other 
issue, how do we ensure
14:10:48  that it is delivered in 
a way that is accessible
14:10:51 . 

14:10:53 Accessible

14:10:53  in the ways of things 
that we have today, like
14:10:58  Auslan interpreters and 
captioning because there is a 
14:11:01 whole new range of 
interfaces there.
14:11:13  Like us, talking about 
webinars, making sure we 
14:11:15 record in the right format so 
the Auslan interpreters are 
14:11:19 always in the recording. 

14:11:21 There is a whole range of big 
picture skills, and minor 
14:11:24 technical detail

14:11:28  to make sure that this 
creation that we are making 
14:11:31 through this technology 
is always accessible. 
14:11:33 It is about the longevity as 
well as these pieces that we 
14:11:38 are creating at this time. 

14:11:40 There is a lot going on, 
there is a lot of change, 
14:11:44 there is a highly intensified 
space, and, as said
14:11:47  Seb

14:11:56  has said, the up skilling 
itself, making sure the 
14:11:59 representation, not just in 
terms of content which is is 
14:12:02 Oracle content around the 
arts, but in terms of access 
14:12:07 around consumption 
and participation. 
14:12:07 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: The 
question of access leads to 
14:12:10 my next question.

14:12:11  As

14:12:14  managers of our centres 
during this
14:12:17  period of transformation, 
what
14:12:19  has been going on with your

14:12:27  Gallery of Lane Cove, what 
has been happening with
14:12:30  challenging.

14:12:34  I will start with 
Cayn Rosmarin. 
14:12:35 CAYN ROSMARIN: Thank 
you for the question.
14:12:39  With digital technology,

14:12:45  you see an increase of 
people coming online. 
14:12:48 It has changed, but 
it has also not. 
14:12:51 What has changed is how 
we tailor programs
14:12:54  now, rather than before.

14:12:56  We do a mass marketing

14:12:57  thing to our community

14:12:58 ,

14:13:06  for access programs 
and everything else. 
14:13:08 We have tailor programs that 
work with our clients to 
14:13:11 deliver in-person stuff. 

14:13:13 That changes how we do things.

14:13:18  It is not necessarily 
digital, but it is effective 
14:13:21 because of digital. 

14:13:23 That is something. 

14:13:24 I will let Rachel talk, 
because I can go on.
14:13:27  SHANTHI ROBERTSON: Rachel, 
what about you? 
14:13:30 RACHAEL KIANG: For us, during 
the period of shutdown,
14:13:38  we had to put it online 
very quickly. 
14:13:41 What we did, we developed 
a suite of
14:13:44  digital rolling, internet 
based exhibitions.
14:13:48  When no one can access 
the gallery.
14:13:50  As a result of that

14:13:53  there is a different range

14:13:55  and reach of audiences.

14:13:59  Both within and 
without Australia.
14:14:04  A number of these projects

14:14:09 , it was interesting to see

14:14:11  that there was a

14:14:19  – there were people, a small 
segment – but they were 
14:14:23 artists with certain 
disabilities who then 
14:14:25 participated in the callout. 

14:14:27 Which, they may not 
otherwise have done.
14:14:29  If it weren't in person

14:14:31 .

14:14:33  SHANTHI ROBERTSON: 
The opportunity for
14:14:35  Rod and accessibility

14:14:40  with audiences and 
practitioners and creative 
14:14:42 people. 

14:14:43 The next question 
is speculative.
14:14:53  It is around the tension of 
the digital and face-to-face 
14:14:56 and creative industries. 

14:14:58 Can the digital ever truly 
replace face-to-face 
14:15:00 programming and

14:15:03  content and engagement? 

14:15:05 Any thoughts there? 

14:15:06 Rachel, I might throw back to 
you, what will we lose if, in 
14:15:12  RACHAEL KIANG:

14:15:15  I don't think Digital can 
phase out personal 
14:15:18 interaction pick,

14:15:19  until

14:15:19  we can

14:15:25  experience exhibitions and 
have the full gamut of 
14:15:27 sensors, for example, 
if we have a sense
14:15:30  or smell or touch-based 
exhibition
14:15:37 , and assuming if we do and 
it is safe to do so it is 
14:15:41 hard to replicate that 
through an online only format.
14:15:45  I have taken the liberty 
to interpret digitally
14:15:48  to get it online.

14:15:52  What can happen is the 
digital delivery can enhance
14:15:56  the audience experience,

14:15:58  whether it be 
through a hybrid
14:16:01  in exhibition

14:16:04  and program delivery 
that uses
14:16:07  both platforms for instance

14:16:10  rather than on mono 
platform if you like.
14:16:18  I think the person probably 
with a lot of experience in 
14:16:22 this area with a lot to 
comment on would be Seb.
14:16:26  SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:16:29  Yes do you have any thoughts 
about the role which the 
14:16:33 digital can play and the 
advantages for digital and 
14:16:36 face-to-face? 

14:16:37 SEB CHAN:

14:16:39  Yes I think digital is 
different, it brings a 
14:16:42 different set of performances 
and what has been interesting 
14:16:45 during this period of 
rapid Excel oration --
14:16:48  rapid acceleration,

14:16:55  it has played out 
in a range of ways. 
14:16:58 For example, I don't 
necessarily see things like 
14:17:01 academic conferences

14:17:01  or symposiums returning

14:17:03  to face-to-face because

14:17:06  that works very well online

14:17:09  and I have sat through many

14:17:11  excellent

14:17:12  zoom presentations

14:17:17  that I would never have 
seen, simply because I would 
14:17:20 not have the time

14:17:21  or financial ability 
or access to travel
14:17:25  to participate in those.

14:17:30  I think what we will see, 
and we are seeing, artists 
14:17:34 and creators making things 
which assume digital activity 
14:17:37 now.

14:17:38  This is something that 
particularly the performing 
14:17:40 arts have

14:17:41  steered away from 
historically.
14:17:45  What we are starting to see 
is really, if I ask my 
14:17:50 children what is the

14:17:51  difference between your 
digital life and the rest of 
14:17:54 the your life,

14:17:56  I think that is starting 
to come out in
14:17:59  creative practice too,

14:18:03  what will happen I believe 
is there will be more 
14:18:07 hybridised

14:18:07  creative practice occurring 
across all fields.
14:18:13  I think that before it was 
happening in a subset of 
14:18:17 creative practice. 

14:18:18 Now it will strip

14:18:19  -- spread across things 
that were not
14:18:22  best done in that way

14:18:24 .

14:18:24  I have started to see

14:18:28  dance performances 
that occur both
14:18:31  across physical 
and virtual space,
14:18:33  in fact I hosted

14:18:36  one at work just 
the other day
14:18:38  with Lou Yang

14:18:43 , a Chinese artist that 
was doing a performance
14:18:46  from Shanghai

14:18:47 .

14:18:49  Her performance was a dancer

14:18:52  who was dancing in real-time 
and real space
14:18:55 ,

14:18:58  who was mapped into a 
virtual video game world that 
14:19:02 was then streamed out to 
people around the globe.
14:19:08  The access was not 
previously available and it 
14:19:11 was a different type of work.

14:19:14  But coming back to the 
challenges that that brings 
14:19:18 though,

14:19:19  is that for audiences 
as well as create ores
14:19:22  it requires the

14:19:24  audiences to have different 
types of skills
14:19:26  with

14:19:27  technology,

14:19:32  connectivity and basic 
literacy around how to use 
14:19:35 the platforms.

14:19:38  So many things I have needed 
to sign up for that I have 
14:19:42 never read the privacy 
policies of,
14:19:44  and they are far too long 
for me to read, so I just 
14:19:49 click yes and accept.

14:19:52  The economics of that is it 
is quite problematic, and we 
14:19:56 can get to the ethical 
questions around it later. 
14:19:59 On the creative side, what 
are we providing the access
14:20:02  for audiences,

14:20:04  interpreters and captioner's 
and other
14:20:06  accessibility

14:20:11  forums for those events. 

14:20:13 Are we providing transcripts 
afterwards
14:20:17  to make recorded events, 
because obviously when they 
14:20:19 are digital they can be 
recorded, and persistent,
14:20:22  if I missed the event

14:20:25  in Shanghai I could be able 
to watch in a weeks time.
14:20:34  This change is how we think 
about live performance. 
14:20:37 Identikit isn't either or, 
I think it is a boat. 
14:20:40 SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:20:43  The idea of a live 
performance taking on a 
14:20:46 different meaning is 
significant and 
14:20:48 transformative, what do you 
think Cayn, are you starting 
14:20:51 to reflect on whether the 
digital will be a mood that 
14:20:55 continues to take over and 
what that might mean? 
14:20:58 CAYN ROSMARIN: I think it is

14:21:03 , it definitely digital is 
not there to replace the live 
14:21:07 performance, it actually 
has to be clear
14:21:09 .

14:21:12  It can never replicate 
face-to-face and the best 
14:21:15 kind of digital programs

14:21:16  are created specifically 
with the digital in mind.
14:21:27  I think when you create any 
kind of program you are 
14:21:30 thinking about who the 
audience is and what the 
14:21:33 audience is going to get an 
feeding that around it and 
14:21:37 what the outcome 
will look like.
14:21:40  You take into consideration 
all the other things that you 
14:21:43 would for a face-to-face 
program, and see how it is 
14:21:46 different. 

14:21:47 Now people are getting, 
before when it was locked 
14:21:50 down, people just replicated 
face-to-face
14:21:52  but now because Australia 
is opening up
14:21:57  it is now about how we can 
create programs that 
14:22:00 complement what we 
do face-to-face. 
14:22:02 That is for me the cutting 
thing, kind of
14:22:05  the interesting things that 
you can see that happening.
14:22:08  Particularly with 
performance.
14:22:11  Last week someone created

14:22:13  a EIF

14:22:17  of a dance and to me that is

14:22:21  an interesting way to take a 
live performance and dancing
14:22:25  and take something that is

14:22:26  everyday technology

14:22:27 ,

14:22:28  meme

14:22:34  and modern day stuff make it 
accessible to an audience 
14:22:37 that might not necessarily 
even see
14:22:40  intemperate dance 
as successful. 
14:22:41 That is something that is 
interesting but definitely 
14:22:44 brings into question

14:22:45  privacy

14:22:45 ,

14:22:48  which we will get to

14:22:51 , so giving out phone 
numbers, cookies
14:22:54  and that kind of stuff.

14:22:55  We will get to that,

14:22:58  it is a thing that 
complements it,
14:23:02  it is not that insists 
on one or the other. 
14:23:06 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: I love 
that idea, I love a good
14:23:09  gift.

14:23:11  I would just want to

14:23:14  point out that

14:23:20  Seb has shared the link to 
the dance performance in the 
14:23:24 chat and I want to take a 
moment to ask the audience 
14:23:29 that we would welcome 
questions from you
14:23:31  in the Q&A,

14:23:32  there are no questions 
to big or little.
14:23:35  Feel free to type them in 
and we will get to them 
14:23:40 shortly.

14:23:43  We have already brought up 
a couple of times in your 
14:23:47 responses questions around 
access and disability.
14:23:50  Absolutely, this is core to 
some of the work we have done 
14:23:54 collaboratively and in 
our own organisations. 
14:23:56 I think the idea that comes 
up a lot in this space
14:24:02  is the idea of digital 
literacy and who has capacity 
14:24:05 to participate when 
things move online.
14:24:13  I wanted to get a sense from 
some of our panel about the 
14:24:18 role digital literacy might 
play here in terms of 
14:24:21 promoting creative engagement 
with diverse audiences and 
14:24:24 whether there are barriers to 
moving to digital working for 
14:24:27 everyone. 

14:24:28 Seb Mike at your 
thoughts first? 
14:24:30 SEB CHAN: I will post the 
link to the recent digital 
14:24:34 inclusion,

14:24:38  the report that was just 
done with RMIT Swinburn and 
14:24:41 Telstra, it is done every 
year and it is a good 
14:24:45 breakdown on how access is 
different across Australia
14:24:48 . 

14:24:49 It really varies

14:24:51  across access affordability 
and digital
14:24:53  abilities

14:24:54  and between age

14:24:57 , rural

14:24:58  and urban,

14:25:01  state-by-state,

14:25:04  there are huge challenges

14:25:05  which

14:25:10  I think many of us had hoped 
were getting better.
14:25:13  I think what COVID has done

14:25:17  has drawn more attention 
to the gap
14:25:19 ,

14:25:21  as the report says,

14:25:22  there

14:25:23  is still

14:25:25  2 million Australians

14:25:30  without sufficient access 
and I think this is one of 
14:25:33 the challenges as 
things move online
14:25:35 , the divide becomes clearer.

14:25:38  The other thing is,

14:25:40  our ability

14:25:43  to do what we would 
have thought
14:25:49  as daily activities 
becomes challenged
14:25:51 ,

14:25:53  with the move away from cash

14:25:55  that COVID has 
brought as well.
14:26:08  There are trade-offs 
occurring and there is not 
14:26:10 much opportunity for us as a 
community to discuss those 
14:26:14 because everything has moved 
as such a pace but I will 
14:26:18 post a link to the 
report in the chat. 
14:26:21 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: Fantastic, 
there is such great stuff 
14:26:24 coming through the chat and 
that index report is a great 
14:26:28 one, it has so much 
comprehensive data on digital 
14:26:31 inclusion. 

14:26:31 So I might get your thoughts 
on that kind of stuff Cayn,
14:26:36  we are serving diverse 
community and audiences, so 
14:26:38 what is the role of digital 
diversity in your programs?
14:26:42  CAYN ROSMARIN:

14:26:45  Our community is incredibly 
diverse and when you are 
14:26:48 looking with a CALD community,

14:26:52  how a lot of the kind of 
stuff you are communicating
14:26:56  online is in English but 
you have to be aware
14:26:59  of what kind of information 
you are giving
14:27:02  also but in terms of access

14:27:04  we happy working 
with the low shall
14:27:07  -- local school

14:27:11  and to give context only 5% 
of the students have access 
14:27:15 to digital devices. 

14:27:16 Computers or anything.

14:27:19  It is probably the opposite 
of what is normal so
14:27:24  if you are working with a 
community that cannot go 
14:27:27 online, how do you 
work with them?
14:27:32  Do you go back to old school 
tangible ways of connecting 
14:27:35 with them,

14:27:40  so that is what we have kind 
of been doing, making 
14:27:44 creativity packs with the 
schools, with our CALD 
14:27:47 audiences are without 
-- with our seniors.
14:27:51  They don't have access to 
online and it is about 
14:27:55 organisations be more 
conscious of that,
14:27:57  being aware not all 
audiences have access to what 
14:28:00 you need and it has 
been interesting
14:28:02  because we have discussions 
in the team constantly about 
14:28:06 how

14:28:06  we can do things other than 
English to our audiences 
14:28:10 online,

14:28:13  and how we can make more 
tangible, physical things so 
14:28:17 it is not just the computer. 

14:28:19 That has been fun. 

14:28:21 SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:28:33  Thank you it sounds like 
there's been a lot of things 
14:28:35 going on at your end to keep 
people engaged in the 
14:28:37 community. 

14:28:37 What about you Rachel? 

14:28:39 Anything from your end you 
want to add about digital 
14:28:43 literacy? 

14:28:43 RACHAEL KIANG: Definitely, 
probably more in agreement 
14:28:46 with what Seb and Cayn 
have already raised. 
14:28:49 When you offered your 
programs you work on certain 
14:28:52 sets of a dump

14:28:55  -- assumption of access, you 
can access the internet, at a 
14:28:59 good speed,

14:28:59  if it's completely 
web-based content
14:29:09  that they have the 
hardware available. 
14:29:11 This is not always the case 
and even if they do, they may 
14:29:16 not necessarily know how to 
navigate their way through so 
14:29:19 well.

14:29:20  In our area we service a 
large number of seniors for 
14:29:24 instance, and there will 
almost always prefer to have 
14:29:27 the physical, real-world, 
in person contact
14:29:35 . 

14:29:35 A simple example, we have 
noticed people coming to the 
14:29:39 gallery, we are now 
offering two options,
14:29:43  if people don't want to pick 
up a flyer they have the 
14:29:47 option of using QR codes

14:29:49  that link seemed to 
information about the 
14:29:51 exhibition on their 
personal device.
14:29:56  But what we find is that a 
bit split, some people do not 
14:30:00 want to go digital

14:30:03  or they might not have a 
smart phone that connects 
14:30:06 with a QR code for instance.

14:30:08  As we do with all the QR 
codes being implemented 
14:30:13 the transition to 
a digital delivery?
14:30:21  SHANTHI ROBERTSON: So there 
is a different experience for 
14:30:24 people who have 
the technology. 
14:30:26 RACHAEL KIANG: Yes. 

14:30:28 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: We will 
get to the big sticky 
14:30:31 question now which if you 
have you have brought up. 
14:30:34 Questions around ethical 
considerations.
14:30:41  Comments of privacy, 
cookies, different dimensions 
14:30:43 of people engagement online 
that you have to consider 
14:30:46 when you are not considering 
doing something in real-time 
14:30:49 or face-to-face. 

14:30:50 I might start with you, Kane. 

14:30:53 What have you been

14:30:55  thinking about ethical 
considerations around 
14:30:56 organisations like yours 
in the digital practice? 
14:30:58 CAYN ROSMARIN:

14:31:02  Sorry

14:31:05 …

14:31:12  I think that is 
a huge question.
14:31:15  Not just for us

14:31:17  arts organisation, but more

14:31:20  organisations 
are held account
14:31:26  across the board to there is 
a huge need, particularly in 
14:31:30 our organisation, we asked 
people to sign up
14:31:33 , should we be pushing that 
to sign up to something
14:31:37 , what kind of data 
are we gathering?
14:31:40  Particularly arts

14:31:47  organisations haven't had 
to consider this as much, 
14:31:50 because they have not had to 
do as much online to stop 
14:31:54 they don't have as much 
digital literacy as they do 
14:31:58 now. 

14:31:58 Particularly in consular and 
regional centres like ours.
14:32:03  I'm more, it will 
come to me in a bit.
14:32:10 , I was distracted. 

14:32:12 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: Seb,

14:32:19  what about you, at the ACMI 
experience, wanted 
14:32:22 discussions around 
ethics like there? 
14:32:23 SEB CHAN: We talk a lot 
about the trade-off
14:32:32  that people need to make 
when they access our 
14:32:35 services. 

14:32:36 And our content. 

14:32:38 And our activity. 

14:32:39 Some of those are ones 
where we have agency
14:32:43  when we host them 
on our own website
14:32:47 , if they collect 
and email address,
14:32:58  or more problematic, email 
addresses are very easy for 
14:33:01 us to generate new ones. 

14:33:03 It is very problematic, 
personal identity information
14:33:10  is a phone number. 

14:33:12 People don't change their 
mobile phone numbers very 
14:33:15 often. 

14:33:15 You'll notice that lots of 
apps and websites are asking 
14:33:19 for that.

14:33:22  I think, historically, 
people think a phone number 
14:33:25 is fine, but that is more 
identifying than anything 
14:33:28 else at the moment.

14:33:33  It is, what I guess I would 
call security literacy or 
14:33:37 data literacy.

14:33:40  It is generally poor across 
our communities. 
14:33:43 People are not aware 
of just how
14:33:45  the economics of

14:33:47  digital platforms work

14:33:49 , and where money is made.

14:33:51  How money is made

14:33:54 . 

14:33:55 When

14:34:04  arts organisations use free 
platforms, it is often the 
14:34:07 end user who watches the 
performance, participating in 
14:34:10 it, who is paying through

14:34:11  their data, their 
behavioural data as well, at 
14:34:14 times, it is being recorded 
and sold for other purposes.
14:34:18  It gets back to some of the

14:34:21  things we said earlier.

14:34:24  Organisations themselves

14:34:25  don't have the literacy

14:34:28  to be able to make 
those choices.
14:34:34  All of those things 
move so fast. 
14:34:37 It is very difficult, even in

14:34:39 , deep in these spaces 
to keep up.
14:34:43  At my museum, we are a

14:34:51  National Museum of screen 
and culture, so we are 
14:34:54 interested in growing that

14:34:56 . 

14:34:57 Digital and related literacy 
in our community.
14:35:00  We have been developing a 
series of programs around 
14:35:03 that.

14:35:05  Which, perhaps, ironically,

14:35:07  will be delivered 
through the very
14:35:11  platforms that we 
are critiquing. 
14:35:13 We hope not. 

14:35:14 But it is that piece

14:35:16 ,

14:35:17  those

14:35:20  who have

14:35:21  the most

14:35:25  at risk for being surveilled,

14:35:26  they are the

14:35:28  most vulnerable 
to surveillance.
14:35:30  Digital technology

14:35:41  is very good at 
surveillance. 
14:35:43 And the whole economic model 
is, unfortunately, proven to 
14:35:46 be won around data capture 
and datasharing.
14:35:48  I will post a nice article

14:35:51  critical digital

14:35:57  magazine in the US. 

14:35:57 There was a great piece

14:35:59  called subscriber city

14:36:02  which talks about what 
it means when you're
14:36:08  city requires you to do 
an app to do anything. 
14:36:12 Drivers license, check 
into a restaurant,
14:36:14  to order food, 
what that means
14:36:19  – what the implications 
of that actually are. 
14:36:22 Those of the things

14:36:26  that we as a community need 
to have more conversations 
14:36:29 about. 

14:36:30 And something that arts

14:36:31  organisations need to be 
active participants in, 
14:36:34 rather than a recommendation

14:36:35  of

14:36:36  white

14:36:45  papers on best practice. 

14:36:46 Why are all those papers 
white anyway? 
14:36:49 Anyway, that aside, there is 
a need for arts and culture
14:36:53  is needing to engage with 
these other sectors
14:36:55  and that they do 
engage with them
14:36:58  in the discussion.

14:37:02  It is not to say that 
artists are not
14:37:05  good at

14:37:09  poking out these questions. 

14:37:11 I will post the link 
in the chat. 
14:37:14 SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:37:20  You raised at the end 
is very interesting. 
14:37:22 A lot of ways, the artistic 
community is in a position to 
14:37:27 critique some of these 
economies of surveillance and 
14:37:29 data extraction. 

14:37:32 And using creative practice 
to contribute to the 
14:37:34 technique. 

14:37:34 But the creative industry and 
sector, like most sector, is
14:37:39  (inaudible) platforms. 

14:37:40 To engage and work with 
their platforms. 
14:37:42 There are interesting 
critical discussions that can 
14:37:44 be had in the creative arts 
industries around the ethical 
14:37:48 questions.

14:37:54  In some ways, it we can have 
them in a more interesting 
14:37:57 and creative way than other 
types of sectors. 
14:38:01 Karen, what about you, as 
someone who has done a lot of 
14:38:04 critical research

14:38:05  around the ethics of 
technology, particularly for 
14:38:07 people living with 
disability, or from 
14:38:09 culturally and linguistically 
diverse background, will your 
14:38:12 thoughts on the ethical 
considerations of art 
14:38:14 organisations in particular? 

14:38:16 KAREN SOLDATIC: As Seb

14:38:17  said,

14:38:20  weighing up the

14:38:23  comp misers,

14:38:28  audience engagement and the 
platforms they have to sign 
14:38:32 up to.

14:38:32  Looking at the

14:38:41  (inaudible) from before, how 
are we going to communicate? 
14:38:44 What are the risks of being 
involved in the platforms?
14:38:49  There is issue around 
disability, accessibility and 
14:38:50 inclusion,

14:38:53  and laying out what the 
ethical risks are 
14:38:56 promulgating in platforms, 
and with
14:38:57  language so that 
it is accessible.
14:39:06  And there are other issues 
around the age of the cohort. 
14:39:10 I think my father, and we 
have to ring him up and say 
14:39:14 that, "Do you know you posted 
on Facebook?" And he has no 
14:39:18 idea how the technology 
works. 
14:39:20 And you think of other 
communities, comments of
14:39:23  ethical guidelines 
around participating
14:39:24  in these platforms,

14:39:28  but the way the 
language is used
14:39:38  there are a whole range 
of new words specific to 
14:39:42 technology themselves that 
people do not have a full 
14:39:45 understanding of. 

14:39:46 Even the idea of data 
capture, what does that 
14:39:50 actually mean? 

14:39:51 So, I think what is going 
to happen over time
14:39:54 , organisations, creative 
organisations are going to
14:39:56  have two

14:39:57  develop their own strategy

14:40:00  on how to communicate 
to the audience
14:40:02  that they want to 
communicate with.
14:40:05  What the actual risks are,

14:40:15  the platforms that 
they utilise. 
14:40:17 This might not be platforms 
that the organisations have 
14:40:21 developed themselves, or 
artists have developed 
14:40:22 themselves, but being some 
type of intermediary
14:40:24  in communicating what the 
risks are in a way that their 
14:40:28 audience will understand it. 

14:40:30 I think the burden, 
eventually, will fall onto
14:40:33  the organisations

14:40:35  to communicate that. 

14:40:36 That will create its own

14:40:38  risks for them as well.

14:40:40  In terms of

14:40:44  if people will continue 
to engage
14:40:47  because they don't 
like the risks
14:40:56  that are communicated, even 
though they are clear and 
14:40:58 understandable, but it also 
raises, once you start 
14:41:01 transposing or translating 
other types of risks
14:41:04 , you are the intermediary 
in that. 
14:41:06 And it creates

14:41:07  a number of other legal 
risks for organisations, 
14:41:10 waiters responsibility lie 
if something goes wrong.
14:41:12  To the audience withdraw,

14:41:15  do they have issues with 
the weight is communicated?
14:41:18  So, it is very complex

14:41:25  and there will be a lot 
more work in this space. 
14:41:28 Particularly the creative 
industry to ensure
14:41:31  that our cultural life 
remains accessible and 
14:41:33 inclusive.

14:41:37  SHANTHI ROBERTSON: 
Thank you, Karen. 
14:41:39 There is the question 
of ethical practice,
14:41:46  collectives and group 
organisations. 
14:41:48 But also questions around 
legalities of some of the 
14:41:51 stuff. 

14:41:52 Which is pressing and 
challenging for organisations.
14:41:54  We have some questions 
in the Q&A. 
14:41:56 So

14:41:59 , come on audiences. 

14:42:01 Kane's mum, if you want to 
type on the question name
14:42:12  typed and fess up one 
of you want to ask. 
14:42:16 Any present questions on this 
theme, get in there, you have 
14:42:19 a fantastic panel of experts 
so go ahead and pick their 
14:42:23 brains.

14:42:24  Until I get a Q&A, I will 
ask you a big picture 
14:42:28 landscape question. 

14:42:31 We raised a lot of 
interesting strands today in 
14:42:33 our discussion, and we 
identified a lot of 
14:42:36 challenges which are 
quite pressing. 
14:42:37 So, I wanted to get 
some final thoughts. 
14:42:40 What are ways that, 
as a sector,
14:42:43  these challenges can start 
to be addressed, particularly 
14:42:45 in terms of diverse audience 
engagement and participation 
14:42:48 for WC as interesting 
ways forward? 
14:42:50 I might start with you, Seb. 

14:42:53 SEB CHAN: I think

14:42:58  it is difficult right now. 

14:43:00 The creative sector

14:43:01  and the cultural sector

14:43:03  across Australia

14:43:05  is

14:43:08  in such an economically bleak

14:43:11  situation.

14:43:18  A lot of the small to 
medium's are just trying to 
14:43:22 survive. 

14:43:22 It feels like

14:43:25  there will be an 
uneven response
14:43:27  across the different

14:43:28  states, and

14:43:30  especially at the 
federal level
14:43:34  on how

14:43:38  art and culture 
is supported. 
14:43:39 No surprises.

14:43:45  I think

14:43:46  the only way that 
I can see things
14:43:49  getting better

14:43:50  in terms of this

14:43:51  digital

14:43:53  literacy and capacity 
building
14:43:59  is a solid investment

14:44:01  in financial

14:44:03  and resource investment

14:44:07  in that capacity 
building work.
14:44:11  And that capacity building 
work is done
14:44:14  with ethical approaches

14:44:16 , right at the forefront 
of that.
14:44:24  There are emerging signs 
of that being a desire
14:44:28  in communities. 

14:44:29 And it is also one 
which, I think
14:44:32  arts and culture

14:44:36  organisations

14:44:37  can take that

14:44:40  opportunity to rethink

14:44:43  more broadly their audience.

14:44:44  And there

14:44:45  lay ship to the audience

14:44:53  in their local communities 
as part of that 
14:44:56 transformation as well. 

14:44:57 It should be about taking the 
audiences you had, and moving 
14:45:01 them

14:45:01  to a digital or hybrid 
space, that is nowhere near 
14:45:05 enough, I think

14:45:06  arts and culture

14:45:09  is a part of everybody's 
lives, but not everyone
14:45:12  identifies it

14:45:13  with or up

14:45:16  participates in 
what is seen as
14:45:18  arts and culture.

14:45:20  So, this is an opportunity

14:45:22  for large-scale

14:45:25  transformation.

14:45:30  But it needs policy changes. 

14:45:32 He really needs policy 
change and investment.
14:45:38 everywhere, with all phones.

14:45:42 This is an opportunity and 
I think it is one that the 
14:45:46 pandemic has shown, there is

14:45:47  our

14:45:50  demand for control content 
and the maybe a new
14:45:54  commercial and corporate 
apartment
14:45:56  who would like to see 
opportunities as well.
14:45:58  I would hope that we end up

14:46:01  with a more diverse 
and participatory
14:46:03  cultural sector

14:46:05  not just

14:46:09  a more digitally capable 
cultural sector. 
14:46:11 We need both. 

14:46:13 SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:46:13  That is a very good point.

14:46:20  Cayn what about you? 

14:46:22 Do you have any thoughts 
about call to action way 
14:46:25 forward questions? 

14:46:26 CAYN ROSMARIN: I do agree with

14:46:30  Seb wholeheartedly, it needs 
to come through policy 
14:46:33 changes

14:46:34  and funding but I also think

14:46:36  that through

14:46:38  CAC practices

14:46:40 , poll children

14:46:45  -- cultural development 
practices working with the 
14:46:47 community to see

14:46:48  what their needs 
and wants our
14:46:53 , to do something that is 
interesting and breach the 
14:46:57 barrier.

14:46:59  And something that I think 
we should be investing more 
14:47:02 in this kind of era, 
it is no longer
14:47:05  creating work and hoping 
an audience comes,
14:47:08  it is about building 
your audience with you
14:47:11 .

14:47:16  The audience is a key 
component of the work you do 
14:47:20 in your organisation as much 
as the artist and everything 
14:47:24 else. 

14:47:24 That also brings a host of 
other stuff which is also 
14:47:28 concerning, issues with 
consent and working with
14:47:31  all different types 
of communities. 
14:47:32 How do you bring

14:47:34  content to that table 
and what does it
14:47:37  look like working 
with school kids,
14:47:39  people with disabilities,

14:47:51  that they have their work 
seen as much as everybody 
14:47:54 else. 

14:47:55 That has been really 
interesting, getting people 
14:47:58 to tell us what they think 
they want as well. 
14:48:01 SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:48:04  I might come back to you 
Rachel and that one because I 
14:48:09 have a couple of questions 
from the audience, and what 
14:48:12 to make sure we have time 
to get to if that's OK? 
14:48:16 We have a question which

14:48:22  Seb has responded to, and 
that is great because it 
14:48:26 means we can get some 
responses from other 
14:48:29 panellists,

14:48:30  Aileen says she is 
interested in the ethical 
14:48:32 considerations when 
working with
14:48:33  artists online.

14:48:43  What are some considerations 
that have popped up all 
14:48:46 surprised you in the quick 
shift to online in terms of 
14:48:50 work and performance which 
had previously been 
14:48:52 experienced live. 

14:48:53 About the relationship 
between the artist and the 
14:48:56 organisation

14:49:01  and what the ethical 
relationship is there between 
14:49:03 artist and organisation, we 
really talked about the 
14:49:06 ethics of audiences and their 
participations before. 
14:49:09 This is a really good 
question, Rachel do you have 
14:49:16 any thoughts of this? 

14:49:18 RACHAEL KIANG: Yes, obviously 
when you present work online, 
14:49:19 depending on the format and 
the medium, it makes it easy 
14:49:21 for it to replicate so there 
were questions around 
14:49:26 copyright

14:49:30 . 

14:49:32 As you have pointed out before

14:49:34  Shanthi

14:49:52 , depending on the platform 
the arts organisations use and most arts organisations 
especially small to medium 
14:50:17 ones are not in the

14:50:22  position to use tailored 
software platforms. They are at the 
mercy so to speak of larger, online 
platform services.
14:50:31  What we had to do in one of 
our cases in our project, we 
14:50:36 went through all the terms 
and conditions with each of 
14:50:40 the artists and let them know 
that this is the extent to 
14:50:44 which we can have an 
agreement with that software 
14:50:48 company, beyond that there is 
that risk, are you prepared 
14:50:52 to take it or not? 

14:50:54 So if you are not, the 
question is do you still want 
14:50:57 to be a part of this project? 

14:51:00 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: So that is 
about what is possible, so 
14:51:03 Cayn you have any views on 
the… CAYN ROSMARIN: About the 
14:51:09 budget, there is his idea 
that if you go online then 
14:51:13 the artist will create work 
and do work for free. 
14:51:15 One of the biggest shifts is 
and that comes from a much 
14:51:21 larger kind of level, their 
work must be compensated. 
14:51:22 So you create the artist's 
work and any form of 
14:51:26 copyright must 
be compensated. 
14:51:28 So we have looked at our long 
-- launched our online 
14:51:31 collection and made it 
available online and I know 
14:51:34 the registrar had a lot of 
discussions with our director 
14:51:37 in relation to the copyright 
and getting proper sign off 
14:51:41 from all of the artists. 

14:51:44 Some of them, are not alive 
anymore, and make sure their 
14:51:50 work can be used online for 
a very specific purpose. 
14:51:51 It can be used for online 
collection and that is it.
14:51:55  That was quite interesting, 
and surprising, a lot of us
14:51:57  thought it is going online 
and it can be used for 
14:52:00 everything but it is actually 
the things it is used for is 
14:52:05 quite specific. 

14:52:06 That is something that is 
interesting and brings into 
14:52:09 question the ethical reasons, 
so when artists are signing
14:52:12  are they signing for their

14:52:15  work to be used on all 
platforms or just a specific 
14:52:18 platform? 

14:52:19 That is something that 
should be considered
14:52:22  in relation to that.

14:52:23  I know the other question 
is from my father as well so
14:52:28  hello? 

14:52:28 SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:52:32  I will go to this were next 
as it is a very interesting 
14:52:36 question that has 
come through,
14:52:46  I think we have all 
experienced a bit of these 
14:52:50 risks here in the move to a 
more online professional life 
14:52:53 this year. 

14:52:54 "How can audience 
participation ever be truly 
14:52:57 interactive in real-time 
without censorship, 
14:52:59 considering the socially 
incorrect risks?",
14:53:07  So if you have audiences 
interactive live in a 
14:53:10 streaming capacity or a 
capacity like this, how can 
14:53:13 you make sure that nothing 
inappropriate happens with 
14:53:16 that audience participation? 

14:53:17 Does anyone have any 
interesting or strange 
14:53:20 stories in this regard or had 
any experience in this? 
14:53:23 (Multiple speakers) (Multiple 
speakers) SEB CHAN: This 
14:53:26 might have been before the 
lockdown or early March
14:53:29 ,

14:53:31  it was a zoom event that 
was going really well
14:53:34  and then abusive,

14:53:35  racist young people

14:53:39  from another country started 
appearing and showing
14:53:41  parts

14:53:42  of their bodies to us

14:53:44 .

14:53:45  Unfortunately, 
no one had set up
14:53:49  an administrative

14:53:50  filter

14:53:53  so it was very difficult 
to lock them
14:53:56 . 

14:53:56 This is

14:53:57  come part of our

14:53:59  practice now

14:54:00  but really,

14:54:08  as I wrote back in my 
comment, everything needs 
14:54:11 moderation and I think one 
of the challenges has been,
14:54:21  I did a lot of the early 
work in the museum around 
14:54:25 social media and the like and 
the sector was very bad at 
14:54:30 realising –

14:54:33  maybe not bad but naïve. 

14:54:34 We had utopian visions of 
bringing everyone together 
14:54:37 and that would be great but 
it turns out bringing 
14:54:40 everyone together without a 
clear set of commonalities,
14:54:43  or common codes of contact

14:54:46  -- conduct

14:54:47  a berry challenging

14:54:49 .

14:54:51  We have seen in physical

14:54:52  contexts

14:54:53  if people

14:54:56  sign up and are abusive 
they will be taken
14:54:59  off.

14:55:00  That is a community 
moderation
14:55:02  and it is critical.

14:55:05  We would not tolerate it 
in our physical spaces,
14:55:08  why should we tolerate 
it in digital spaces?
14:55:13  It becomes a literacy piece 
and a capacity peace.
14:55:20  It is something we talk to 
artists as well, going back 
14:55:24 to the previous question, 
institutions
14:55:26  that commission work or 
present work by artists
14:55:31  I would suggest need to 
have an understanding
14:55:35  that might exceed the 
artists around particular 
14:55:38 platform so they can guide

14:55:40  the safe and responsible 
presentation of that work
14:55:43 .

14:55:48  This may mean a negotiation 
with the artist to make sure 
14:55:52 that yes, this live 
performance will be moderated 
14:55:54 I know you don't want to 
but it will be moderated
14:56:00 . 

14:56:00 We might have a security 
guard or ushers. 
14:56:03 We have digital ushers.

14:56:04  We need to record 
this event because
14:56:07  we need to be able 
to present it in
14:56:10  other time zones

14:56:13  to provide the access that 
we otherwise could not do.
14:56:17  So there is a negotiation, 
it is a literacy piece
14:56:21  in the balance

14:56:24  of knowledge about these 
platforms and services
14:56:26  that it is part

14:56:28  of what I think 
needs addressing.
14:56:30  SHANTHI ROBERTSON:

14:56:40  The mediation role 
is critical. 
14:56:42 We have time for one more 
audience question and we do 
14:56:45 have one which is 
specifically for Karen so 
14:56:48 Karen if I could ask for a 
quick response from you as it 
14:56:53 is almost time to wrap up 
this is an important question 
14:56:56 to end on "You think 
disability inclusion is 
14:56:59 increased in digital 
platforms a lot and why?" 
14:57:02 KAREN SOLDATIC: That is 
a really good question. 
14:57:05 Some people suggest 
that it has
14:57:07  an other people suggest 
that it hasn't.
14:57:10  I think

14:57:16  even given our own 
experience working with these 
14:57:19 webinars,

14:57:20  one of the key issues is 
about the cost and funding
14:57:24  of disability inclusion.

14:57:27  One of the things that 
has happened with
14:57:29  COVID and the rapid transport

14:57:32  online,

14:57:34  different galleries

14:57:36  and creative spaces

14:57:41  have live streamed their 
events and that is supposedly
14:57:45  makes it more accessible 
to our diverted audience.
14:57:49  But what happens to 
the deaf community?
14:57:51  These

14:57:55  kinds of costs have not 
actually been budgeted for
14:57:58  in the delivery,

14:57:59  not just because of the rapid

14:58:06  online pivot in the way that 
programs and so forth should 
14:58:10 be delivered, but also, they 
are not budgeted for in the
14:58:13  overall program scope 
from the initial outset.
14:58:20  I don't think we can 
assume that the idea
14:58:25  something being made digital 
is going to automatically be
14:58:28  accessible.

14:58:31  I think for

14:58:37  anything to be digitally 
accessible it comes back to 
14:58:40 the points made earlier,

14:58:47  it needs to be developed 
from the outset, it needs to 
14:58:50 be conceptualised as front 
and centre of the program 
14:58:54 overall so that the different 
types of accessibility, even 
14:58:57 things like affordability,

14:58:58  what kind of platform is 
it going to be delivered on
14:59:02 , is going to cost people 
money to sign up?
14:59:05  So not even the ethical 
issue about
14:59:13  the data captioning that you 
have to hand over if it is a 
14:59:17 free platform but often these 
platforms you have to pay a 
14:59:21 fee for.

14:59:26  And for a lot of people with 
disabilities because of the 
14:59:30 employment situation, they 
have to make an ethical 
14:59:32 decision about if I 
participate in this cultural 
14:59:35 event and I have to pay a fee 
for that then what does that 
14:59:40 then I forgo? 

14:59:42 So that creates another 
type of inaccessibility. 
14:59:44 That really has been thought 
of in that process either. 
14:59:48 There is the issue about 
how is this designed and 
14:59:51 conceptualised from the very 
outset and what kind of 
14:59:54 accessibility is have been 
included and in the 
14:59:57 implementation and delivery?

14:59:58  The other issue is 
immediate delivery
15:00:00 , the idea of digitisation

15:00:05  is supposedly provides 
longevity and as I said to 
15:00:08 you earlier, it 
is also something
15:00:21  might be accessible in a 
moment of delivery as a 
15:00:31 It is not just thinking 
about immediate
15:00:46  accessibility but the 
longevity of the project. 
15:00:50 That is where disability 
often miss out, it is the 
15:00:52 long-term nature, they can't 
go back to the resources that 
15:00:55 able-bodied people can. 

15:00:57 So, we need to think about 
that as part of the design 
15:01:01 process in and of itself, and 
also, how do we budget and 
15:01:05 finance for that to make sure

15:01:08  it is inclusive over the 
long term for our audience? 
15:01:12 SHANTHI ROBERTSON: It is a 
question of long-term 
15:01:14 planning and design, not just 
of the moment and provision 
15:01:18 of accessibility for the OK, 
we have come to the end of 
15:01:22 our time, so, we need 
to wrap it up. 
15:01:25 I would like to thank 
everyone for participating in 
15:01:28 the webinar, the audience 
members for fantastic 
15:01:31 questions. 

15:01:32 A fantastic thanks to our 
three incredible panellists. 
15:01:34 One thing the digital has 
enabled for us today is to 
15:01:38 get a

15:01:39  incredible range of 
expertise in the one room, 
15:01:42 which is difficult to do. 

15:01:45 We know that you are busy 
people, and your 
15:01:47 organisations have faced a 
lot of challenges these year, 
15:01:50 we appreciate you being part 
of the dialogue, and the 
15:01:54 broader community of practice 
around ADDEPT practices. 
15:01:57 Thank you to our Auslan 
interpreters and captioners. 
15:01:59 Our panellists have put great 
resources into the chat, we 
15:02:03 will save those, contact a 
member of the ADDEPT team,
15:02:11  and you can find it on our 
website, we are happy to 
15:02:15 share the resources if you 
didn't have a chance to note 
15:02:19 things down. 

15:02:21 They do offer coming. 

15:02:22 Enjoy the rest of 
your afternoon. 
15:02:24 Captions by Ai-Media